So many women are targets of gun violence

topic posted Tue, April 17, 2007 - 12:08 AM by  Kinnari
Blacksburg is such a beautiful town. It's bike friendly and full of nature lovers. They have the kindest, friendliest small town folks. The gorgeous New river, which is one of the oldest rivers in the country, runs near it. College students love to float down it and climb the mountains which are close by.

I'm just heartsick about these murders. I worked at Virginia Tech in 1980 in the Chemistry department. My sister volunteered there with countless students and my brother-in-law taught there for years. I dated a police officer there who's still in active duty. I've contacted him to tell him people all over the world are thinking of them. I have college age kids so I particularly empathize with the parents who sent their loved ones to school, expecting them to be safe.

How long will we let American companies profit from the blood of our children?
www.vpc.org/studies/vidintr.htm

Please sign this gun control petition in response to the Blacksburg, Virginia tragedy.
www.bradynetwork.org/site/Survey

This week I'll light candles for those who were killed, all the more tragic, knowing this was utterly preventable.

More helpful links:

California gun law report card:
www.bradycampaign.org/legisla...tate.php

from Million Mom March:

"All Americans have the right to be safe from gun violence in their homes, neighborhoods, schools, and places of work and worship.

All children have the right to grow up in environments free from the threat of gun violence.

Gun violence is a public health crisis that harms not only the physical, but also the spiritual, social, and economic health of our families and communities.

The availability and lethality of guns make death or severe injury more likely in domestic violence, criminal activity, suicide attempts, and unintentional shootings.

It is possible to reduce the number of deaths and injuries caused by gun violence with reasonable, common sense policy."
www.millionmommarch.org/aboutus/

The Brady campaign to prevent gun violence has excellent statistics that prove that nations that implement gun control have much less gun violence.
www.bradycampaign.org/

Here's another petition to get Walmart to stop selling bullets and includes stories of people who purchased bullets there and went on to murder others.
www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/invo...x.php

So many gun control opponents are abusive:
www.latimes.com/news/opini...61455.story

Gun companies should be held liable for the damage their weapons cause:
energycommerce.house.gov/repar...19.htm
posted by:
Kinnari
SF Bay Area
  • Re: So many women are targets of gun violence

    Wed, April 18, 2007 - 1:38 PM
    Thanks so much for posting these links. I'm a little outdated on my stats and research since Femicide was the last book I read on this topic. Will read with interest!
    • Re: So many women are targets of gun violence

      Fri, April 20, 2007 - 12:17 AM
      my professor in grad school did her doctorate on femicide and i used to work on violence against women issues for years. who wrote femicide? i got to meet a specialist on femicide in berkeley, a woman who'd long been a shero of mine: diana russell who also specializes in marital rape. one of the few people on the planet who does.

      hugs,
      newbie
      • Re: So many women are targets of gun violence

        Fri, April 20, 2007 - 6:05 AM
        Domestic violence is still the cause closest of all to my heart. I've worked with a lot of young women's groups on rape prevention, done a little work with battered women, would like to do more in that field.
        Russell wrote Femicide with I think Jill Radford as the co-author. I know there was a follow-up book for 'global perspective' I've just not had the chance to pick it up as of yet.
        What was she like to meet?
        • Re: So many women are targets of gun violence

          Sat, April 21, 2007 - 11:04 PM
          she's fascinating. she's south african and her family i believe is british and settled there. she's brilliant. i told her her book practically saved my life. left a batterer and got a grad degree in social work and began working with battered women and abused children. she runs a coop sort of house with several women living there in berkeley.
  • re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

    Thu, November 1, 2007 - 9:05 AM
    Kinnari,

    You have made some gross generalizations:
    "many gun control opponents are abusive"
    "Gun companies should be held liable for the damage their weapons cause"

    I am a woman. I recently completed 2 handgun classes. I intend to apply for a concealed-carry permit soon.
    I WANT to carry a gun for self-protection.
    I've been physically assaulted by 2 UNARMED strangers, and the police DID NOTHING (even when given their license plate, description,etc. Even after they found them.).
    The government will NOT protect me. In fact, NO ONE will protect me. I have to protect myself.
    And I want the right to do so.
    I believe people should have the right to carry guns.
    And I intend to.

    I feel strong, proud, independent knowing that I have the knowledge and means to take care of myself.

    It is irresponsible of anyone to make gross generalizations in order to propel an agenda.
    • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

      Thu, November 1, 2007 - 9:15 AM
      After having been physically attacked by 2 people - one of the guys was MUCH bigger than me, MUCH more muscular..
      I know that male attackers can be totally unarmed and cause ALOT of damage to a woman.

      However, if I am armed, the odds are now more in my favor.

      You argue for "gun control", but you don't realize that male attackers don't need to be armed.
      Women, however, benefit greatly from carrying a gun!

      Feminists should be campaigning for women to take gun classes and carry guns!
      Look at the decrease in violence against women that would result.

      You are approaching the issue totally wrong.
      Why would you want to take away my right to carry a gun and protect myself??!!
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

        Fri, November 2, 2007 - 10:18 PM
        Sorry, but the research indicates that guns don't protect women near as much as advocates want to believe. For that matter, neither does carrying pepper spray.

        Weapons can be taken away from you. You also are assuming that if you are attacked you'll be able to get to your gun--or any other weapon--in time. That's not usually the case.

        I agree that self defense classes would serve you FAR better.
        • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

          Tue, November 6, 2007 - 3:53 PM
          RE:"I agree that self defense classes would serve you FAR better. "

          I have indeed been physically attacked by 2 people at once.
          There was NO way I could ever physically hold either or both off.
          Trust me.

          Since you have not been in that situation, perhaps it is best for me to decide how to handle it.

          If you had been physically attacked, by 2 people at once no less, your opinion might be different.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

            Tue, November 6, 2007 - 5:21 PM
            First starters, I HAVE been attacked.

            I'm not saying you don't the right to do as you please. Nor is anyone else. But we ARE trying to make you aware of the facts. You're more than welcome to carry a gun. But I'm extremely concerned about the false sense of security you've embraced from the idea.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

        Wed, November 7, 2007 - 10:14 AM
        By the way, the phrase 'many gun control opponents are abusive' is not a gross generalization. "All gun control..." or just "gun control opponents..." would both be grossly generalized statements, but the inclusion of 'many' qualifies the statement so that it isn't a gross assumption. (The term many is not equivalent to most or majority, so it is not generalizing).
        • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

          Wed, November 7, 2007 - 10:22 AM
          Nimbrethil - Um, you're quite correct, thanks for pointing that out. Either way though, whether it was a qualified statement or a generalization, it seems like Sunshine just proved the Kinnari's statement to be quite correct.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

            Wed, November 7, 2007 - 11:24 AM
            No doubt. I was going to let the irony overdose speak for itself, though I suspect it will be lost on Sunshine. The whole 'ARF, Fifi ARF!' comment was obscenely abusive given the context, and from a woman accusing US of not being feminists, no less.
            • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

              Fri, November 9, 2007 - 9:33 AM
              Too bad this got so polemic and silly so fast. Certainly there are appropriate situations for both men and women to have guns. It's just that - unless one is planning to become a vigilante and protect other women by killing violent men preemptively or being an armed escort - I don't see how an individual owning a gun is a form of feminist action or activism. It doesn't make women in general safer, it doesn't decrease violence against women, it doesn't even insure the safety of the individual carrying it. On the other hand, guns in the home can get turned upon women and children by their partners which contributes to upping the lethality of domestic violence, having a gun easily accessible makes impulsive murder/suicides much easier and likely to happen, and children or adults get accidentally shot (particularly if the gun is kept in an easy to reach place so that one is alway prepared). Most of the dangers that women and children need to be vigilant about are perpetrated by people they know.
    • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

      Thu, November 1, 2007 - 9:35 AM
      Shineshine (with a gun) - Have you considered taking martial arts classes? You'd be much better protected and certainly would have served you well in the situations you were in. It's quite common for guns to get turned on their owners and, of course, one runs the risk of any children in the house being "accidental" gun death statistics. Even if you do choose to carry a gun, learning a martial art so that you can't be disarmed by someone else and have a more integral ability to protect yourself would be a good step. It's also a much more effective way to reduce fear and know that you are strong and capable than relying upon a gun.

      Since this is an activism tribe, I'm led to ask if you've contacted any women's groups or made a complaint to the police department? Where I live it took concerted effort by women's groups to get police trained to deal with violence against women in the many forms it manifests itself (rape, domestic abuse, stalking, etc). The same was true for violence against gays and lesbians. And, of course, is true about getting rape and domestic abuse laws changed a couple of decades ago.

      Yes, we do have to stand up for and protect ourselves. We also have a choice of how we do so - through adopting the violent means we're attempting to avoid having imposed upon us or through changing the environment that condones and celebrates violent means to personal ends. Of course, you're free to make your own choices but it sounds a bit more like you feel like you're afraid and backed into a corner than empowered. That said, I don't assume to know your intent or feeling, I'm just sharing how it appears to me.
      • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

        Thu, November 1, 2007 - 8:45 PM
        Hi sunshine,
        I am sorry to say that I disagree with your position that more guns will make women safer. One of the tried and true realities of self protection with a gun is that you should never point it unless you are 100% sure you will be pulling that trigger. And no gun class can teach you how to kill a person. So it seems to me that a moment of doubt or hesitation in taking a person's life can turn your unarmed assailant into an armed one. Also a gun does not make you any stronger, it does not make you any more self aware, and unless you are going to carry it loaded and concealed wherever you go and whatever you do, it cannot protect you thoroughly. I agree with Fifi that training your body to fight is far more likely to actually protect you. And more guns has never in history equaled less violence.
        • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

          Thu, November 1, 2007 - 9:58 PM
          Ah what assumptions.
          I am quite physically fit.
          Lots of high-altitude hiking and lots of backcountry snowboarding (ie: slogging up a high mtn peak whilst slogging a snowboard).
          I consider myself strong, but was still no match for a huge muscular guy.

          The point is...
          I have chosen firearms.
          Its NOT very feminist of you to tell me to do otherwise, and for you to try to take away my RIGHT to defend myself as I see fit.

          I'm quite sure that if I get attacked whilst unarmed, and end up dead in a ditch as a result... I am sure that you will feel contrite.
          <Ahem>

          YOU chose your "weapons" of choice.
          Leave me to choose mine. And keep your nose out of my personal business (Including how I choose to stay safe and alive)
          • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

            Fri, November 2, 2007 - 5:19 AM
            Sunshine (with a gun) - "Its NOT very feminist of you to tell me to do otherwise, and for you to try to take away my RIGHT to defend myself as I see fit."

            Oh get over yourself. I'm certainly not telling you not to protect yourself, just pointing out a few things and giving my impression of how you sound. If you don't want people to comment on your "personal business", don't post your "personal business" in a public forum open to the world and precisely created for people to, gasp, comment on each other's posts. I am not trying to take away your "RIGHT" to protect yourself. I actually recommended you better learn how to defend yourself and deal with it like an adult rather than a child having a tantrum and frothing at the mouth with fear. Clearly you aren't familiar with martial arts if you don't understand exactly how useful this training would have been against a larger attacker. And, yes, I have been attacked by a larger, violent man - a stranger when I was 17 - but I managed to fight him off. My sister was raped in our house. Your experience isn't so unique. Your anger isn't so special, nor is your fear.

            Ahem - I'm sure when I hear about an accidental firearm death where a woman is killed by her assailant turning her gun on her because she wasn't fast or strong enough to prevent him taking it from her, I'll think of you.
            • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

              Tue, November 6, 2007 - 3:51 PM
              ARF, Fifi, ARF!

              Remember to spay and neuter!
              • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

                Wed, November 7, 2007 - 9:17 AM
                Sunshine - Clearly this is a fact based and rational choice on your part (not highly emotive or reactionary) since you're able to reasonably, calmly and rationally make your case for why guns are adequate protection for women against male violence. Oh wait, you couldn't even keep your cool in an online discussion about guns and violence...which makes me wonder how well you'd do under the very real pressure of pointing a gun at someone with the intent to kill them. Have you ever killed anything with a gun? I have. I've chosen not to do that again. Have you ever had a gun pointed at you as a threat? I have. I found that my most useful tool was my own ability to be calm and I managed to talk my way out of that situation. So, clearly you're making all kinds of assumptions about what other people know and have lived through. Really, sad as it is, your experience isn't unique.

                No one's telling you what to do. We're just, as fellow women, warning you about how often guns get turned on women and used against them. A man's superior strength, speed and agility still puts you at a physical disadvantage if you don't know how to use his size and strength against him, even if you have a gun. I'd suggest - not tell, just suggest - you learn how to break a nose, gouge an eye out, and how to get someone bigger than you down on the ground where their size isn't much of an advantage. This is all pretty basic self defense stuff (being "sporty" and doing some hiking has nothing to do with being able to defend yourself, as you've obviously learned).

                You know, my major issue with you carrying a gun is that you don't sound like you're the kind of person who should carry a gun. You're neither calm nor rational about the subject, and you resort to hurling insults since you're working purely on emotion so you clearly don't have a particularly good ability to manage conflict. All of these add up to you being just the kind of woman that gets her own gun turned on her in her own house, or getting all worked up and shooting someone in an emotional outburst since you don't seem to be able to manage them very well. You sound like you'll be a danger to more than just yourself.

                Or, of course, you could just be a shill for the gun industry *lol*




                www.wagv.org/


                Page 1
                WOMEN AND GUNS
                For years, the gun industry and gun lobby have perpetrated the myth that owning guns will protect
                women from violent crime. The industry's goal is to create a new market by persuading women to
                purchase guns and join the ranks of gun enthusiasts. Its sales strategy is based on promoting fear. [1]
                The result has been the increasing purchase of guns by women, although not in the numbers the gun
                industry would like. Only approximately 10 percent of women own guns.[2]
                Separating out facts from myth makes clear that women are endangered rather protected by the
                proliferation of handguns.
                Myth: Guns protect women from gun violence.
                Fact: Rates of female homicide, suicide and unintentional firearm death are disproportionately
                higher in states where guns are more prevalent.[3]
                Fact: In the US, regions with higher levels of handgun ownership have higher suicide rates.[4]
                Although women have higher rates of depression than men, it is the handgun-suicide connection, rather
                than depression, that accounts for higher suicide rates.
                Myth: Handgun ownership increases women’s ability to defend themselves.
                Fact: In 1998, women were 101 times more likely to be murdered with a handgun than to use a
                handgun to kill in self-defense. Women were 302 times more likely to be murdered with a handgun
                than to use a handgun to kill a stranger in self-defense. Women were 83 times more likely to be
                murdered by an intimate acquaintance with a handgun than to kill an intimate acquaintance in
                self-defense.[5]
                Fact: In the rare cases in which women do use guns in self-defense, it is most commonly against an
                attacker known to them.[6]
                Myth: Guns protect women from rape.
                Fact: Guns are rarely used by rapists - less than 2 percent of rapes are committed with guns,
                while almost 70 percent are committed with personal weapons (physical violence). Women would
                be safer knowing self-defense to fight off an attacker than using a gun which can easily be turned against
                them.[7]
                Myth: Women need guns to protect against stranger rape.
                Fact: Stranger rape is not the greatest danger for women as most women (75 percent) are raped by
                offenders known to the victim. 60 percent of rapes are committed against victims under the age of 18
                who are forbidden by law to own a gun.[8]
                July 2005
                Endnotes:
                Page 2
                1. Susan Glick, “Female Persuasion: How the Firearms Industry Markets to Women and the Reality
                of Women and Guns,” Violence Policy Center, 1994. www.vpc.org/studies/fpstudy.htm
                2. Tom W. Smith, “2001 National Gun Policy Survey of the National Opinion Research Center:
                Research Findings,” National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago, December 2001.
                www.norc.uchicago.edu/online/guns01.pdf
                3. Matthew Miller et. al., "Firearm Availability and Suicide, Homicide, and Unintentional Firearm
                Deaths Among Women."
                Journal of Urban Health
                79: 26-38 (2002).
                4. David Hemenway and Matthew Miller, "Association of Rates of Household Handgun Ownership,
                Lifetime Major Depression, and Serious Suicidal Thoughts with Rates of Suicide across US
                Census Regions."
                Injury Prevention
                8: 313-316 (2002).
                5. Violence Policy Center, “A Deadly Myth: Women, Handguns, and Self-Defense,” 2001.
                www.vpc.org/studies/myth.htm
                6. Ibid.
                7. FBI Uniform Crime Reports, The Structure of Family Violence: An Analysis of Selected Incidents.
                Washington, D.C., 1998.
                8. Glick, “Female Persuasion: How the Firearms Industry Markets to Women and the Reality of
                Women and Guns.”
        • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

          Thu, November 1, 2007 - 10:09 PM
          RE: "I agree with Fifi that training your body to fight is far more likely to actually protect you."

          It is obvious that neither of you have ever been physically attacked by larger/stronger men.

          If you did, you would understand that there can be QUITE a difference in hieght, wieght, and strength.

          EVEN for a physically fit and strong woman.

          I don't have the time to learn a sufficient level of martial arts to ensure the ability to save my life.
          I DO have the time to have taken a SERIES of gun classes (about legality, mechanical aspects, safety, ACCURACY, and self-defense).

          AND WHAT ABOUT A WOMAN WHO IS DISABLED OR IN A WHEELCHAIR???
          Someone who does not have the option of using martial arts.
          You people are quite narrow-minded.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

            Fri, November 2, 2007 - 10:47 PM
            I agree that you need to get over yourself.

            No one is making assumptions, especially about your strength. Self defense classes don't focus on making women physically stronger--most of them operate from the standpoint that women ARE generally smaller and weaker than men and how to use men's size and superior strength against them.

            No one is telling you what to do. We ARE pointing out that the relevant statistics point to guns NOT being a very safe form of self-defense.
      • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

        Thu, November 1, 2007 - 10:02 PM
        Ah Fifi,

        What assumptions you make!

        I am not afraid at all.

        I've always been a strong and independent woman!

        I feel much stronger now that my chances of a thug trying to smash my head into the pavement again are greatly reduced because the next guy(s) will be looking at the end of my Smith and Wesson.

        Its not very feminist of you to make assumptions about my level of fear!
        I am strong and I stand up for myself.
        Therefore I will make certain that no one bashes me about again.
        That is not fear.
        That is empowerment.
        There is a difference.
        A big difference.
        • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

          Thu, November 1, 2007 - 10:23 PM
          I wouldn't go as far and say they're being narrowminded and unfeminist for disagreeing with you. But I know if I lived in a high-crime area, then I'd definitely consider carrying a gun around with me.

          Although owning guns is illegal where I live (UK) so it's not something I can really comment on.
          • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

            Fri, November 2, 2007 - 7:39 AM
            "Feminists should be campaigning for women to take gun classes and carry guns!
            Look at the decrease in violence against women that would result. "

            It seems we are not the only ones making assumptions here. What evidence have you ever seen in any gun violence study to suggest that more people, female or otherwise, would result in less violence. And I am certainly not going to make assumptions about your level of fear, only your logic. Unless you are implying that only women should be able to carry a handgun, and that the handgun will always be loaded, it does not seem that this is a true solution to the threat against women. And again, what if your assailant is also armed, then you are down to a gun fight, a situation which you are not nearly as likely to survive. And being physically strong and fit is a world of difference from being trained to fight. Eleven years old is the most dangerous age for stranger kidnapping of little girls, but this doesn't mean that I would feel safer handing my daughter a gun on her eleventh birthday. And Sunshine, you keep making references to men being able to overpower women easily with strength and size, so what good is a gun going to do if they do grab your wrist before you decide to pull the trigger. Once again, this is about guns being dangerous for EVERYONE. And as someone who grew up in gang territory in West Oakland, I can say that putting more guns out there never made anyone feel any safer.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

          Fri, November 2, 2007 - 10:55 PM
          You're missing some very important points.

          Are you aware of the possibility of being caught off guard and having your gun taken away from you? Police have reported women being raped while facing down the barrel of their own gun.

          Are you planning to carry a gun aimed and ready to shoot? Because if not, having a gun on your person is NO guarantee against being assaulted. Even if you were constantly prepared to shoot, that's a danger in and of itself, that you might shoot yourself or someone else entirely by accident.

          There've been cases where women shot their attackers and then had to defend themselves in court because they were not believed by the authorities to have been acting in self-defense. Would you be prepared to be in a jury trial facing people who didnt believe you were at threat of being raped, for one?

          It is NOT unfeminist to advise against using guns. It is, however, foolish to think that carrying a gun is the great solution. It isn't. You have no way of knowing if the 'next' guy will be looking at the end of your gun.
          • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

            Tue, November 6, 2007 - 3:59 PM
            I think its very amusing that people tell other people what to do when they are poorly informed on a subject.
            Much like those old men standing on street corners holding signs of bloody fetuses.

            Don't tell others what to do when
            1. you are obviously not well-informed on the issue
            2. it doesn't concern you

            Here are some facts:
            1. When I took my gun class, most of the students were women.
            2. My instructor loves teaching women, because he has seen the vast improvement in self-confidence and independence that results.
            3. The range master was a woman, who carries. She learned when she was brutally attacked. Hasn't been attacked since.

            I am quite sure that I FAR more informed on the minutae of guns than any of you posting here. Quite sure.
            and no, I don't think any of you are "feminists" in the least.
            You all seem to have a serious problem with a woman with a gun.
            Huh...
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

              Tue, November 6, 2007 - 5:34 PM
              You are making some huge assumptions of your own now.

              It's a common charge against feminists to claim that we're all against women being armed if we are at all hesitant to endorse the idea that guns are the solution to crimes against women.

              I am WELL informed on the issue of guns. The fact I've reached a different conclusion about them than you does not in any way mean that I don't know anything about guns, or that I have never been assaulted by a man. Ditto for everyone else.

              But you are GRAVELY mistaken if you think that a gun will make you 100% attack-proof. There are NO guarantees, whether you've got a gun or not. You'd have to be prepared to shoot at all times in order to maximize your chances--and that means carrying the gun aimed, with your finger on the trigger--and even then there's no absolute guarantee you wouldn't shoot a random person accidentally, get freaked and shoot someone who startled you but wasn't actually threatening you, or, best yet, yourself.

              Women can be and HAVE been assaulted when they were armed with guns. Either they couldn't get to their gun, or their assailant got it away from them and used it ON them.

              Carry a gun if you like. Neither I nor anyone else here would deny you that right. But at least be cognizant of the fact it's not foolproof.
    • Re: re: try taking a gun class and getting a gun!

      Wed, November 7, 2007 - 9:56 AM
      Sunshine wrote to Kinnari "You have made some gross generalizations: "many gun control opponents are abusive"."

      I think you've managed to superbly prove Kinnari's point (generalized though it may have been) by resorting to hurling insults (toothless and childish though they may be) such as " ARF, Fifi, ARF! Remember to spay and neuter!". I mean, really, comparing another woman to a dog and then adding in sterilization procedures to the mix? And you claim to be a feminist? I mean, as hilarious as it is, it's also making me a little bit sad for you.

      By the way, your fear reads loud and clear. There's no need for anyone to make assumptions. It's not unnatural to be afraid after being attacked, and I truly am sorry that you had to go through that all too common experience. It is a shame that you've decided to choose violence as opposed to real activism as a means to try to make yourself feel (artificially) safer. I hope you survive this choice, and one day come to understand that activism is about making change collectively and for the collective, not just about one person. You're not being an activist by buying a gun - or a strong woman - you're just being a woman buying a gun because she's afraid of being attacked and overpowered by men. And, that Sunshine, is a very sad thing on many levels.

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